Прошло почти 15 лет с тех пор, как стал известен сет-лист концерта в Лобенштайне, прошедшего 15 декабря 1995 года. С тех пор многие рабочие названия стали известны, и часть тайн перестали являться таковыми. Однако осталась одна нераскрытая деталь, а именно - Sonne. Что это за песня?

По моему мнению, Sonne - это Alter Mann. И вот аргументы:

1. В отличие от других песен с эры Herzeleid, Alter Mann не имеет рабочего названия, как и Wilder Wein. Однако второй вариант исключается по следующим пунктам.

2. Sonne игралась после Seemann, которая является относительно спокойным и медленным треком. Группа ни разу в своей карьере не играла две спокойные песни подряд. На концерте во Фрайенвальде, который шел буквально на следующий день, после Seemann был исполнен Feuerrader. Это драйвовая песня в быстром темпе, и она оживляет толпу после медленной баллады.

4. Опираясь на имеющиеся сет-листы, Alter Mann игрался в середине почти всегда. Исключение - концерты конца 1996 и весны 1997 года, где его исполняли третьим треком. Это подтверждает, что после медленного и напряженного трека Rammstein в глазах группы Alter Mann способен оживить толпу, по аналогии с исполнением Tier второй песней в 1999 году. Структурно сет-лист осени 1995 напоминает 1994 год, ибо в Лобенштайне Jeder lacht игрался третьим, как и в 1994, Rammstein - первым, Weisses Fleisch - в середине, Du riechst so gut и Das alte Leid - в конце. По такой же логике Alter Mann мог спокойно играться в середине именно сет-листа, где он и стоит после Seemann.

5. Wilder Wein не вписывается в динамику концертов 1994-1996 годов. Не исключено, что его исполняли, однако если это и было так, то он мог исполняться вместо Seemann или перед финальными Du Riechst so Gut или Wollt ihr das Bett in Flammen sehen?, будучи на 12-13 позиции в списке.

6. По словам Vortipor73, во время его собственных размышлений касаемо сет-листа, он отметил, что на втором концерте в Лобенштайне игрались Spiel mit mir и Sehnsucht, однако, обе песни вышли на альбоме Sehnsucht (что важно). Скорее всего, он перепутал Spiel mit mir с Alter mann, ибо обе песни вышли на альбоме Sehnsucht и игрались до выхода альбома - оригинальные названия песен ему тогда не были известны. Однако нет никаких доказательств, что Spiel mit mir игрался как минимум до зимы 1996.

7. По словам Vortipor73, Alter Mann игрался ещё до выхода альбома. Вряд ли он имел ввиду период 1996-1997, так как в контексте упоминается конкретно 1994-1995 годы. Помимо Лобенштайна 1995 года, он посетил концерты в Лобенштайне 1994 в апреле, в Гёрквице осенью и летом, а также в Заальфельде. В Заальфельде Alter Mann не игрался, в летнем и осеннем Гёрквицах - вполне вероятно, однако за то, запомнит ли человек песню на ближайшие 15 лет, отвечает системность. Его воспоминания относятся к 2009 году, когда не было известно конкретно, исполнялся ли Alter Mann в период 1994-1995 годов или нет.

для дополнения инфы (если вдруг кто-то не знает о чем идет речь) - ловите фотку сета



Ну и по другим песням отпишу конкретные названия, опять же на случай того, если кто-то не погружен в мир рабочих названий песен ходивших в кругах группы: 
Tiefer - Tiefer Gelegt (Jeder Lacht)
Afrika - Sehnsucht
Kinski - Heirate Mich
Bringer - WIDBIFS
Riecher - DRSG
Feuer - Feuerrader
Hallo - Das Alte Leid
Glas - Schwarzes Glas 

Свое мнение по теме выскажу попозже

Edited March 7Mar 7 by ALMV

Больше склоняюсь к тому, что это может быть ШММ. Как раз её порой играли между Моряком и ХМ.

There was a video I saw quite a while ago that I think made some pretty good points towards it being SMM, like that it was played between Seemann and Heirate Mich even when it debuted, and that Vortiper specifically remembered SMM being played, I wish I could find it cus it was a great video

вряд ли spiel mit mir игрался в 1995. на это абсолютно ничего не указывает

Okay, got a lot to say here and am going to directly respond to the original post.
 

Point 1: AM had no working title.

 

Rebuttal: It would be more accurate to say the song had no known working title - the first time we see AM as itself on a setlist, it's alongside SMM in late 1996 which, despite being still in demo form and having at least one known working title (Ich war mit dir), it had been renamed already at this point. However, even then it technically did have the working title of Der alte Mann. (Yes, so did Wilder Wein as Der wilde Wein, but that's not common knowledge so just gonna ignore that)

 

 

Point 2: "Sonne was played after Seemann, which is a relatively calm and slow track. The band never once in their career played two quiet songs in a row. At the concert in Freiwalde, which was going on just the next day, Feuerrader was played after Seemann. It is a driving song in a fast tempo, and it enlivens the crowd after a slow ballad."

 

Rebuttal: Wilder Wein and Klavier would like a word, especially after being immortalized on LaB. All that really needs to be said here honestly. The consistency of the "fire up the crowd after a slow song" thing didn't really exist until the Mutter Tour, when Zwitter directly followed Mutter for most (all?) of 2001.

 

 

Point 3: "Based on the available setlists, Alter Mann was played in the middle almost always. The exception is concerts of late 1996 and spring 1997, where it was played as the third track. This confirms that after a slow and tense Rammstein track in the eyes of the band Alter Mann is able to revitalize the crowd, similar to the performance of Tier as the second song in 1999. Structurally the setlist of fall 1995 reminds 1994, because in Lobenstein Jeder lacht was played third as in 1994, Rammstein - first, Weisses Fleisch - in the middle, Du riechst so gut and Das alte Leid - at the end. By the same logic Alter Mann could be played in the middle of the setlist, where it is after Seemann."

 

Rebuttal: Aside from what appears to be a typo about AM being played third as opposed to second in late 1996 and spring 1997, nothing to really note here but it does seem to rely at least somewhat on the second point I already went through.

 

 

Point 4: "Wilder Wein does not fit into the dynamics of the 1994-1996 concerts. It is possible that it was performed, but if it was, it could have been performed instead of Seemann or before the final Du riechst so gut or Wollt ihr das Bett in Flammen sehen? being on the 12-13 position in the list."

 

Rebuttal: Unsure of how to interpret Wilder Wein not "[fitting] into the dymanics" of those concerts. I'm guessing he means style and/or vibe? In any case, we do know it was played not only in 1995, but in December like the Sonne setlist, so this is a moot point. We also technically can't say exactly what kind of vibe it would've had anyway since we don't know if Wilder Wein '95 (or '96 as exists somewhere as a studio demo) is closer to the 1994 studio demo or 1997/98 live version.

 

 

Point 5: "According to Vortipor73, during his own thoughts regarding the set list, he noted that Spiel mit mir and Sehnsucht were played at the second Lobenstein concert, however, both songs appeared on the Sehnsucht album (which is important). Most likely he confused Spiel mit mir with Alter Mann, because both songs appeared on the Sehnsucht album and were played before the album was released - he did not know the original song titles at the time. However, there is no evidence that Spiel mit mir was played until at least winter 1996."

 

Rebuttal: Just assuming that Vortipor mistakenly thought AM was SMM is honestly really bizarre, especially considering point 3. But with this point, the most it could indicate is that there's a non-zero chance that this did happen, which I don't think really anyone would find convincing. And yes, SMM's first confirmed performance is Starclub 1996 in Februrary, but that's literally only two months away from Lobenstein.

 

Further, point 3 talks about setlist positions. With the exception of Rammstein being the opening song and WF maintaining a similar position throughout, 1994 and 1996 had completely different setlist structures (and, of course, very different setlists as well). As such, using Schlettwein as the basis for what a "normal" setlist position for AM was seems extremely faulty. Just to use some examples that had already changed notably from the time of Saalfeld to the time of Freiwalde (or Loft if you'd prefer, its setlist matches Freiwalde's), Heirate mich was moved several spots later, Feuerräder was moved from the end of the main set to pretty much right in the middle, Seemann was moved from the first song of the encore to also pretty much right in the middle...you get the idea. Additionally, SMM was in the same position as Sonne when it premiered (save for WF following SMM due to it being the DJ Kom leg of the tour, which itself was of course a rare exception). Conversely, as far as we know AM never returned to the middle of the setlist after 1994 until its final performance in October 1997 which, again, was a rare exception where they just randomly played it in Klavier's place for unknown reasons. As such, if we go off setlists, SMM seems to be a much stronger candidate for Sonne '95.

 

 

Point 6: "According to Vortipor73, Alter Mann was played before the album was released. It is unlikely that he was referring to the period 1996-1997, as the context mentions 1994-1995 specifically. In addition to Lobenstein 1995, he attended concerts in Lobenstein 1994 in April, in Görkwitz in the fall and summer, and in Saalfeld. Alter Mann was not played in Saalfeld, in summer and fall Görkwitz - quite possibly, but systematicity is responsible for whether one remembers a song for the next 15 years. His recollections date back to 2009, when it was not known specifically whether or not Alter Mann was performed between 1994 and 1995."

 

Rebuttal: Fully agree with the first couple sentences. Other than that, the only thing I really have to say about this point is that I feel it's lacking real evidence one way or the other.

19 hours ago, Konzertliebe said:

There was a video I saw quite a while ago that I think made some pretty good points towards it being SMM, like that it was played between Seemann and Heirate Mich even when it debuted, and that Vortiper specifically remembered SMM being played, I wish I could find it cus it was a great video

Do you mean the suddenly vanished RammMacht channel?

2 hours ago, Rasputin93 said:

Do you mean the suddenly vanished RammMacht channel?

Yeah I think so, it was a pretty good video

13 hours ago, Rasputin93 said:

Do you mean the suddenly vanished RammMacht channel?

I remember that, it's actually where I got a lot of my points from in my post here.

В 08.03.2025 в 02:53, wahrheit1003 сказал:

Okay, got a lot to say here and am going to directly respond to the original post.
 

Point 1: AM had no working title.

 

Rebuttal: It would be more accurate to say the song had no known working title - the first time we see AM as itself on a setlist, it's alongside SMM in late 1996 which, despite being still in demo form and having at least one known working title (Ich war mit dir), it had been renamed already at this point. However, even then it technically did have the working title of Der alte Mann. (Yes, so did Wilder Wein as Der wilde Wein, but that's not common knowledge so just gonna ignore that)

 

 

Point 2: "Sonne was played after Seemann, which is a relatively calm and slow track. The band never once in their career played two quiet songs in a row. At the concert in Freiwalde, which was going on just the next day, Feuerrader was played after Seemann. It is a driving song in a fast tempo, and it enlivens the crowd after a slow ballad."

 

Rebuttal: Wilder Wein and Klavier would like a word, especially after being immortalized on LaB. All that really needs to be said here honestly. The consistency of the "fire up the crowd after a slow song" thing didn't really exist until the Mutter Tour, when Zwitter directly followed Mutter for most (all?) of 2001.

 

 

Point 3: "Based on the available setlists, Alter Mann was played in the middle almost always. The exception is concerts of late 1996 and spring 1997, where it was played as the third track. This confirms that after a slow and tense Rammstein track in the eyes of the band Alter Mann is able to revitalize the crowd, similar to the performance of Tier as the second song in 1999. Structurally the setlist of fall 1995 reminds 1994, because in Lobenstein Jeder lacht was played third as in 1994, Rammstein - first, Weisses Fleisch - in the middle, Du riechst so gut and Das alte Leid - at the end. By the same logic Alter Mann could be played in the middle of the setlist, where it is after Seemann."

 

Rebuttal: Aside from what appears to be a typo about AM being played third as opposed to second in late 1996 and spring 1997, nothing to really note here but it does seem to rely at least somewhat on the second point I already went through.

 

 

Point 4: "Wilder Wein does not fit into the dynamics of the 1994-1996 concerts. It is possible that it was performed, but if it was, it could have been performed instead of Seemann or before the final Du riechst so gut or Wollt ihr das Bett in Flammen sehen? being on the 12-13 position in the list."

 

Rebuttal: Unsure of how to interpret Wilder Wein not "[fitting] into the dymanics" of those concerts. I'm guessing he means style and/or vibe? In any case, we do know it was played not only in 1995, but in December like the Sonne setlist, so this is a moot point. We also technically can't say exactly what kind of vibe it would've had anyway since we don't know if Wilder Wein '95 (or '96 as exists somewhere as a studio demo) is closer to the 1994 studio demo or 1997/98 live version.

 

 

Point 5: "According to Vortipor73, during his own thoughts regarding the set list, he noted that Spiel mit mir and Sehnsucht were played at the second Lobenstein concert, however, both songs appeared on the Sehnsucht album (which is important). Most likely he confused Spiel mit mir with Alter Mann, because both songs appeared on the Sehnsucht album and were played before the album was released - he did not know the original song titles at the time. However, there is no evidence that Spiel mit mir was played until at least winter 1996."

 

Rebuttal: Just assuming that Vortipor mistakenly thought AM was SMM is honestly really bizarre, especially considering point 3. But with this point, the most it could indicate is that there's a non-zero chance that this did happen, which I don't think really anyone would find convincing. And yes, SMM's first confirmed performance is Starclub 1996 in Februrary, but that's literally only two months away from Lobenstein.

 

Further, point 3 talks about setlist positions. With the exception of Rammstein being the opening song and WF maintaining a similar position throughout, 1994 and 1996 had completely different setlist structures (and, of course, very different setlists as well). As such, using Schlettwein as the basis for what a "normal" setlist position for AM was seems extremely faulty. Just to use some examples that had already changed notably from the time of Saalfeld to the time of Freiwalde (or Loft if you'd prefer, its setlist matches Freiwalde's), Heirate mich was moved several spots later, Feuerräder was moved from the end of the main set to pretty much right in the middle, Seemann was moved from the first song of the encore to also pretty much right in the middle...you get the idea. Additionally, SMM was in the same position as Sonne when it premiered (save for WF following SMM due to it being the DJ Kom leg of the tour, which itself was of course a rare exception). Conversely, as far as we know AM never returned to the middle of the setlist after 1994 until its final performance in October 1997 which, again, was a rare exception where they just randomly played it in Klavier's place for unknown reasons. As such, if we go off setlists, SMM seems to be a much stronger candidate for Sonne '95.

 

 

Point 6: "According to Vortipor73, Alter Mann was played before the album was released. It is unlikely that he was referring to the period 1996-1997, as the context mentions 1994-1995 specifically. In addition to Lobenstein 1995, he attended concerts in Lobenstein 1994 in April, in Görkwitz in the fall and summer, and in Saalfeld. Alter Mann was not played in Saalfeld, in summer and fall Görkwitz - quite possibly, but systematicity is responsible for whether one remembers a song for the next 15 years. His recollections date back to 2009, when it was not known specifically whether or not Alter Mann was performed between 1994 and 1995."

 

Rebuttal: Fully agree with the first couple sentences. Other than that, the only thing I really have to say about this point is that I feel it's lacking real evidence one way or the other.

this is interesting, thank you for the feedback

20 часов назад, Konzertliebe сказал:

Yeah I think so, it was a pretty good video

lol i remembered their saalfeld v3 or kind of where guys just reduced noise during the whole recording of v1 from 3-4th gen

8 hours ago, Greifwaldester said:

lol i remembered their saalfeld v3 or kind of where guys just reduced noise during the whole recording of v1 from 3-4th gen

I dont think they ever advertised it as a V3 but yeah

Пусть уже и были высказаны довольно четкие тейки, я все таки вклинюсь со своим "тычком в небо", сказав вне всего описанного выше

Я склоняюсь к тому, что это была какая то совсем прототипная демка ШММ, возможно еще сильнее отличающаяся от того, что мы позднее услышали в записях марта 1996 года. Как мы с вами знаем, текст демо версии менялся от концерта к концерту, и я думаю ничто не мешало раммштайновцам в первый раз обкатать свеженаписанную версию ШММ на публике. Разрыв между этим концертом и первым задокументированным исполнением не такой уж и большой, так что мне кажется это все таки именно ШММ. 

Таймлайн мог выглядеть следующим образом: В декабре 1995 года, в дороге и на саундчеках пишется первая версия ШММ, раммштайновцы решают обкатать ее на публике и делают это 15 декабря 1995 года. Их несколько не устраивает реакция публики на новейший материал (или они сами чувствуют, что все таки песня еще слишком сыра для живого исполнения), допиливают ее, и в феврале 1996 презентуют переделанную/доделанную на тот момент версию песни. С ней они начинают ездить дальше, из концерта в концерт добавляя какие-то едва заметные нюансы, меняя текст. И по итогу, к записи альбома она уже обросла мясом в виде подобных мелочей, и стала такой какой мы ее знаем. 

Вероятно, если это была она - был отыгран прям совсем скелет трека, не альтернативная версия или что-то в этом роде, а прикидочно-демочный скелет, который им не терпелось показать публике, дабы увидеть реакцию.

 

Это вязалось бы еще больше, если бы гасверк так и оставался январской записью, тогда вообще бы не оставалось вопросов. но так как она все же мартовская - главный минус мною высказанного это все же разрыв между декабрем и по факту первым задокументированным исполнением в гасверке в марте.

Но как пример, можно привести ту же телегу с Buck Dich, которая игралась еще летом 1996 года, а потом была вычеркнута из треклиста до мая 1997 года (и даже на апрельском концерте в Амстердаме ее не сыграли), так что разрывы между исполнением первых версий песен и окончательных на какой то период времени им свойственны. Надеюсь, когда нибудь кто то отроет забытую кассетку с записью этого концерта, запылившуюся и почти рассыпающуюся от времени, оцифрует это добро, и мы с вами будем тут сидеть и удивляться

 

Edited March 10Mar 10 by ALMV

15 hours ago, ALMV said:

Even though some pretty clear takes have already been made, I'll still chime in with my "poke in the sky" by saying, in addition to everything described above,

I'm inclined to think that this was some kind of prototype SHMM demo, possibly even more different from what we later heard in the recordings of March 1996. As we all know, the lyrics to the demo version changed from concert to concert, and I think nothing prevented Rammstein from testing the freshly written version of SHMM in public for the first time. The gap between this concert and the first documented performance is not that big, so it seems to me that it was SHMM after all. 

The timeline could look like this: In December 1995, on the road and at soundchecks, the first version of SHMM is written, Rammstein decide to test it in public and do it on December 15, 1995. They are not quite satisfied with the public's reaction to the new material (or they themselves feel that the song is still too raw for a live performance), they finish it, and in February 1996 they present the reworked/finished version of the song at that time. They start touring with it further, adding some barely noticeable nuances from concert to concert, changing the lyrics. And as a result, by the time the album was recorded, it had already acquired some meat in the form of such trifles, and became what we know it as. 

Probably, if it was it, they played a completely bare bones track, not an alternative version or something like that, but a rough demo skeleton, which they were eager to show to the public in order to see the reaction.

 

This would fit even better if Gaswerk remained a January recording, then there would be no questions at all. But since it is still from March, the main minus of what I have said is still the gap between December and the factual first documented performance in Gaswerk in March.

But as an example, we can cite the same cart with Buck Dich, which was played in the summer of 1996, and then was crossed out from the track list until May 1997 (and even at the April concert in Amsterdam it was not played), so gaps between the performance of the first versions of songs and the final ones for some period of time are typical for them. I hope that someday someone will dig up a forgotten cassette with a recording of this concert, dusty and almost crumbling with time, digitize this goodness, and you and I will sit here and be amazed

 

 

Assuming Sonne is SMM, which I agree it probably is, I think it could be not completely barebones but still probably the earliest possible version of it. It might be similar to the version of Der Riecher that was played at Tacheles. It's also worth noting that, now knowing that Gaswerk is March, Starclub 1996 could contain yet another version of SMM, which would mean there exists a total of eight demo versions (Dec 95, Feb 96, March 96, June 96, early July 96, mid July 96, Sep 96, Oct 96).

 

Interesting about Bück dich: there was a weird article written by someone who hates Rammstein that I saw awhile back, where the author attended the concert on 3 Oct 1996 and seemed to imply in this article that Bück dich was performed. Ever since then I have wondered if it was brought back briefly to setlists in late September or early October 1996.

15 часов назад, wahrheit1003 сказал:

 

Assuming Sonne is SMM, which I agree it probably is, I think it could be not completely barebones but still probably the earliest possible version of it. It might be similar to the version of Der Riecher that was played at Tacheles. It's also worth noting that, now knowing that Gaswerk is March, Starclub 1996 could contain yet another version of SMM, which would mean there exists a total of eight demo versions (Dec 95, Feb 96, March 96, June 96, early July 96, mid July 96, Sep 96, Oct 96).

 

Interesting about Bück dich: there was a weird article written by someone who hates Rammstein that I saw awhile back, where the author attended the concert on 3 Oct 1996 and seemed to imply in this article that Bück dich was performed. Ever since then I have wondered if it was brought back briefly to setlists in late September or early October 1996.

продолжая тему ранних версий песен - я бы хотел услышать версию tier за 1996 год, сыгранную в маннгайме. 

 

наибольший интерес у меня вызывает ее возможная схожесть с версией 1994 года

6 hours ago, Greifwaldester said:

Continuing with the theme of early versions of songs - I would like to hear the 1996 version of Tier, played in Mannheim. 

 

What interests me most is its possible similarity to the 1994 version.

I'm so glad someone else is bringing up the mystery of Tier '96, that's my most wanted recording and has been for some time because Tier is one of my favorite Rammstein songs.

 

I will say, we do at least know that the lyrics had been rewritten by that point, because of a magazine that reported on the Mannheim concert and mentioned a few of the lyrics. I suspect Tier was more akin to how Bück dich was at that point.

в тексте SMM в Гамбурге 1996 куплеты следующие:

 

Ich war mit dir in Ost und Süd
Ich war mit dir in Nord und West
Ich war mit dir hoch und tief
Bis ich dich zum Spielen rief

 

Ich war mit dir schwarz und weiß
Ich war mit dir kalt und heiß
Ich war mit dir so hoch und tief
Bis ich dich zum Spielen rief

 

можно предположить, что здесь либо обращение к Солнцу (Sonne для незнающих), либо вещание от его лица. можно в принципе под смысл подогнать. а поскольку к середине года сменился текст, поменялось и рабочее название и впредь не использовалось

В 11.03.2025 в 23:12, wahrheit1003 сказал:

I'm so glad someone else is bringing up the mystery of Tier '96, that's my most wanted recording and has been for some time because Tier is one of my favorite Rammstein songs.

 

I will say, we do at least know that the lyrics had been rewritten by that point, because of a magazine that reported on the Mannheim concert and mentioned a few of the lyrics. I suspect Tier was more akin to how Bück dich was at that point.

if I am not mistaken, there were something like this:

Der Mann, der zwischen Mensch und Tier,
Nicht unterscheiden kann

it can tell about the thing that there was another tempo of the song, because lyrics are not so rhythmic. the most interesting thing for me is instrumental, i believe there could be samples or riff similar to the 1994 version

2 hours ago, Greifwaldester said:

if I am not mistaken, there were something like this:

Der Mann, der zwischen Mensch und Tier,
Nicht unterscheiden kann

it can tell about the thing that there was another tempo of the song, because lyrics are not so rhythmic. the most interesting thing for me is instrumental, i believe there could be samples or riff similar to the 1994 version

Definitely going to mention this when me and @wahrheit1003 work on a list of every live demo,  definitely will be after the studio demos list

2 hours ago, Greifwaldester said:

if I am not mistaken, there were something like this:

Der Mann, der zwischen Mensch und Tier,
Nicht unterscheiden kann

it can tell about the thing that there was another tempo of the song, because lyrics are not so rhythmic. the most interesting thing for me is instrumental, i believe there could be samples or riff similar to the 1994 version

I could be misremembering, but I thought it was implied in that magazine that those lines were more of a paraphrasing of the lyrics as opposed to a direct quote. If they are a direct quote, that's extremely interesting and could have a lot of interesting implications. For instance, it seems that the October 1996 live demo may have been closer (from what an attendee said) to the released version than the live demo played at Mannheim.

В 13.03.2025 в 23:58, wahrheit1003 сказал:

I could be misremembering, but I thought it was implied in that magazine that those lines were more of a paraphrasing of the lyrics as opposed to a direct quote. If they are a direct quote, that's extremely interesting and could have a lot of interesting implications. For instance, it seems that the October 1996 live demo may have been closer (from what an attendee said) to the released version than the live demo played at Mannheim.

yes, I think you are right. I was very young when I found information about this version, so I can make mistakes there.

god bless the fact that I was very interested by Rammstein community and demo-concert content by them, so I still keep in mind some points from old articles about some versions of the songs or their first concerts